Confusing on BAB/AB?

[Cornflower]

The more I read up on the mechanics, the more confused I get....

Consider these statements:

For Epic Characters, all BAB progression is universal for all characters and increase by 1 every two character levels.
As a WM, you also get Superior Weapon Focus, up to +6.

Basically, one would conclude that the only reason to go many levels with WM instead of Fighter is trading the possibility of many feats for SWF, Critical Multiplier and Ki Critical.

So, why is everybody saying differently? Some say F12/WM28 is the optimum, some say F14/WM26, some say F18/WM22. Now, the way I understand it is that if you want the max theoretical AB, you should go F12/WM28, but you might be "feat-starved". F18/WM22 gets you more feats, but you lose 2 AB, which might be a nice compromise.

So, did I understand all that correctly, or is my thinking wrong?

[Ming]

No your thinking is correct. Also bear in mind "best" is highly situational in a game with so many variables. Now if they mean Best as in highest ab? Then thats not as subjective.

[Cornflower]

.... your thinking is correct....

That's something I don't hear often. Thank you kind Sir!!!

[Cornflower]

So, basically, what I have to do now is scrap my latest fighter and remake her from start. It's no use having "Anna the Axe-murderer" if she hasn't enough feats to actually swing her axes. Oh, well, I only got to lvl 7 before I realized my mistake....

[Wing--Zero]

Lol ......never thought I would hear the top ab Fighter/WM/(Fill in your UMD blank) build called "feat starved" (I know your not saying it just quoting what others said) . Honestly the 12/28 version gets everything you would really want/need for a WM. There are other variations but, there all pretty much the same exact thing. If theres something your wanting and can't fit into it like your wanting shave some ab off.

Your thinking is right on the money about bab...its +20 for pre epic, +10 for epic, and add in whatever SWF you want...25, 28, 22 doesn't really matter as much. Like Ming said there are way to many variables in play to really determine the best version. No matter what version you have or go with it just comes down to who gets the better rolls at the time. Even using differnt weapons...some have higher crit ranges yet lower damage and others have high damage low crit range. That makes them even out...I would just go with what I enjoy using/having the most.

[Cornflower]

Lol ......never thought I would hear the top ab Fighter/WM/(Fill in your UMD blank) build called "feat starved" (I know your not saying it just quoting what others said) . Honestly the 12/28 version gets everything you would really want/need for a WM. There are other variations but, there all pretty much the same exact thing. If theres something your wanting and can't fit into it like your wanting shave some ab off.

Your thinking is right on the money about bab...its +20 for pre epic, +10 for epic, and add in whatever SWF you want...25, 28, 22 doesn't really matter as much. Like Ming said there are way to many variables in play to really determine the best version. No matter what version you have or go with it just comes down to who gets the better rolls at the time. Even using differnt weapons...some have higher crit ranges yet lower damage and others have high damage low crit range. That makes them even out...I would just go with what I enjoy using/having the most.

Words of wisdom...

[clanan]

...its +20 for pre epic...

This only counts for the "fighter" like classes (fighter, paladin, weapon master etc.) If you add a lvl "rogue" like class before 21 you're BaB is going to be lower.

[Ippydips]

10 Fighter / 2 Rogue / 28 WM is far better then 12 Fighter / 28 WM.. you get +4 AC, Evasion, UMD...

[Ming]

10 Fighter / 2 Rogue / 28 WM is far better then 12 Fighter / 28 WM.. you get +4 AC, Evasion, UMD...

Still situational, though UMD is probably worth it

[Cornflower]

10 Fighter / 2 Rogue / 28 WM is far better then 12 Fighter / 28 WM.. you get +4 AC, Evasion, UMD...

I think you need to explain that. How do you get +4AC? I get that you get the special feats, the UMD (which is less useful in high levels I think, so maybe not worth it, although, feel free to prove me wrong...).

[Ming]

10 Fighter / 2 Rogue / 28 WM is far better then 12 Fighter / 28 WM.. you get +4 AC, Evasion, UMD...

I think you need to explain that. How do you get +4AC? I get that you get the special feats, the UMD (which is less useful in high levels I think, so maybe not worth it, although, feel free to prove me wrong...).

Hes referring to having 40 ranks in tumble, instead of just 20 ranks as a cross class skill. So it costs the same number of skill points, but with twice the AC benefit. Evasion is situational though due to fairly poor reflex saves on the other two classes and a low dex score.

[Cornflower]

Ah, thank you.

Anyways, unless you reach the high 70 AC, the bad guys are gonna hit you anyway. I've found that resistance and reduction is way better than AC on BSK.

[The Flying Rodent]

Hey all. I realise that this is an old thread, but I thought it'd be good to clarify some things.

BAB is class dependent before level 20, and there are three main BAB categories: High BAB classes get a BAB point every level up to 20, Mid BAB classes miss out on a BAB point at levels 1/5/9/13/17 of their class [meaning that class denominations in groups of 4 with mid BAB classes tends to be important], and Low BAB classes miss out on an AB point every odd level [1/3/5/etc.].

New attacks per round before level 20 are gained at 6/11/16 BAB, and 4/7/10/13/16 BAB if you're a monk. After 20, no additional attacks per round are gained, and BAB increases by 1 point every odd level. In the case of Fighter Weaponmaster, both are High BAB classes, so there's not much to worry about pre-20.

If one decides to go Fighter Weaponmaster Rogue however, it's best to take Rogue after level 20 so as to retain the max possible BAB. It's almost always favorable to take at least one level of Rogue with a plain Fighter/Weaponmaster combination because UMD and Tumble skill dumps are nice. Evasion is also nice, but generally Strength-based WM's have low Reflex save which makes this less important [Dex WM's are another story but they tend to index into more Rogue for Epic Dodge anyway].

As for WM's: They first gain a Superior Weapon Focus point at level 7, and then more focus points + a bonus feat at levels 13/16/19/22/25/28 WM. Compare this to Fighter, which doesn't get any extra AB, but gets feats every 2 levels past 10 instead of 3.

Now: As for what the 'optimal' number of Weaponmaster levels are on a build depends on what the build wants to do. Generally the trend is to get as much Fighter as is necessary to cover all the feats that they want, and then maximise Weaponmaster after that. The exception to this would be on builds that want to index into another class as well [e.g. Fighter 7 / DD 26 / WM 7 wants lots of DR, Rogue 13 Fighter 8 Wm 19 wants Epic Dodge].

For Strength WM's at least, Fighter X / Wm 28 / Other Optional Class Y gets the highest AB possible for WM builds. A Half Orc version with 36 Base Strength [48 Maxed] is looking at 30 [base] + 19 [str mod] + 7[ wm] + 4 [focus + prowess] = 60 AB with Maxed Strength and a Mundane Weapon and no buffs [59 AB on Humans].

As an aside: If one takes 1 level of Druid for the final class then they get +2 AB outdoors [62 AB on a Half Orc with Max Strength and a Mundane Weapon], and if one takes 1 level of Wizard they get True Strike [which means a rather silly 80/75/70/65/80 AB for a round on a high strength WM with Dev Crit!].

The tradeoff with a WM 28 build is that it gets very few Epic Feats. It also usually has a throwaway feat on the 28th WM level [After Overwhelming, Dev, Epic Weapon Focus, Epic Prowess and Armour Skin, all that's left is Epic Toughness usually], and to get Epic Weapon Spec and Great Strength VI means that it has to start with maximum base strength [20 for Half Orc, 18 for Human], which gimps other stats like Constitution. Example starting stats would be 20 str 14 dex 8 con 13 int 8 wis 6 cha for a Half Orc Ft 11 / Wm 28 / Rge 1.

A better compromise IMO is Fighter 12 / Weaponmaster 25 / Rogue 3 or Fighter 14 / Weaponmaster 25 / Rogue 1 . These builds get 1 less AB point than the 28 WM version [59 with Max Strength/Mundane Weapon on Half Orc, 58 as Human], but they get more Epic Feat opportunities, allowing them to go Great Strength VII and thus start with more well rounded stats [say 17 str 13 dex 14 con 14 int 8 wis 8 cha for a Human]. If you're after even more feats [say you want to make a Strength Based duel Kukri WM], then Fighter 16 WM 22 Rogue 2 and Fighter 20 Wm 19 Rogue 1 are other options as well.

With regards to the AC/DR point: Weaponmasters have the option to get Improved Expertise, which allows even Strength Based WM's to push past 70 AC with +5 equipment [at the expense of AB, but they tend to already have a lot of that]. That said, if lots of Damage Resistance equipment is available, then this is generally preferable to AC, as it's easier to itemise for [you only need 1-2 Resistance items as opposed to 4-5 AC items, which frees up slots for things like Regen/Immunity gear]. That's not to take away from something like Tumble skill, which will still reduce things like Attacks of Opportunity from Movement, and Extra AC can still be nice against mid-level enemies.

Anyway, my two cents. Still learning about the server myself, but I can at least impart some general nwn knowledge that should be applicable regardless. Hope it helps. =)

[Slinthius Archer]

Just wanted to say that was a great read! Very detailed and well thought out.

[DM_eaze]

Hey all. I realise that this is an old thread, but I thought it'd be good to clarify some things. [...]

Great post. Thanks for sharing.