Powerbuilders unite V: Wizard?!?

[Cornflower]

OK, against my better judgement... I found something that looks like a viable build for a "low/mid-magic PW". It's basically a pure Wizard with melee focus. Weirdly enough.... What it does is just builds a Wizard but the game style is fighter (using buffs/TrueStrike and summons/familiar). Only trouble it's a dwarf and I'm allergic to dwarves. Oh, well.

I have no idea if this is doable on BSK.
Also, it feels like a waste building a pure Wizard, when I can throw in some bard levels for a Crafter. (Yes, I already have a crafter build, but I lack patience to level up that slowly and being killed like once every five minutes...)

The way I understand the BAB mechanics, if you have 4 levels of Bard before lvl 20, your Wiz/Bard will get a better BAB than if you go pure Wizard. I don't know if it makes any difference in higher levels, so do I go Wiz16/Bard4 to Wiz35/Bard5, or just Wiz39/Bard1 (but then I can't craft good stuff until 40).

So, the general idea was to ask: Is it possible to build pure Wizard, or a Bard/Wizard to level up on BSK without being bored/killed? If, so any tips on playing style or other general ideas? Even better, if you can give me a detailed build, feats and all.

Also, I know I post a lot about builds, but I'm a toon-aholic with less patience than a 4-year-old... Just ignore me if I bore you.

[Ming]

So your talking about two different builds here basically. One part your talkinga bout a gish (knickname for a melee wizard) and in the next your talking about a bard/wizard crafter thing. Which you wouldnt have enough bard levels for perform to hit the 81 skill needed to craft the best items, unless you got something else in mind.

On the gish front I can help get you started at least, and mine will save you from your fear of dwarves.

Wizard 24/Fighter 6/Pale Master 10, Human, PvM

STR: 16 (24)
DEX: 8
CON: 16
WIS: 8
INT: 16 (20)
CHA: 8

HP: 394
Saves (F/W/R): 22/19/15 (31/28/24 vs. spells)
BAB: 22
AB (max, naked): 33 (melee), 22 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 19/30

01: Wiz 1 - Toughness, Blind Fight; School: Illusion
02: Wiz 2
03: Wiz 3 - Wpn Proficiency Exotic
04: Wiz 4 - INT+1 (17)
05: Ftr 1 - Wpn Focus: Bastard Sword
06: Ftr 2 - Still Spell, Knockdown
07: Ftr 3
08: Ftr 4 - INT+1 (18), Wpn Spec : Bastard Sword
09: Wiz 5 - Spell Penetration, Extend Spell
10: Wiz 6
11: Wiz 7
12: Wiz 8 - INT+1 (19), Empower Spell
13: Wiz 9
14: Wiz 10 - Greater Spell Penetration
15: Wiz 11 - Improved Knockdown
16: Wiz 12 - STR+1 (17)
17: Wiz 13
18: Wiz 14 - Imp Crit: Bastard Sword
19: Wiz 15 - Silent Spell (taken so you can cast more true strikes)
20: Ftr 5 - STR+1 (18)
21: Wiz 16 - Epic Wpn Focus: Bastard Sword
22: Wiz 17
23: Wiz 18
24: Wiz 19 - STR+1 (19), Epic Prowess
25: Wiz 20 - Grt Int I (20)
26: Wiz 21
27: Wiz 22 - Automatic Still Spell I
28: Wiz 23 - STR+1 (20), Epic Spell Penetration
29: PM 1
30: PM 2 - Automatic Still Spell II
31: PM 3
32: PM 4 - STR+1 (21)
33: PM 5 - Automatic Still Spell III
34: PM 6
35: PM 7
36: Wiz 24 - STR+1 (22), Epic Spell: Epic Warding
37: PM 8
38: PM 9
39: Ftr 6 - Grt Str I (23), Epic Wpn Spec : Bastard Sword
40: PM 10 - STR+1 (24)

SKILLS: 306
Concentration 43(46), Craft Trap 1(6), Disable Trap 5(12), Discipline 42(49), Listen 43(42), Open Lock 16(15),
Search 5(10), Set Trap 21(22), Spellcraft 43(48), Tumble 20(19)

01: Conc(4), DTrap(2), Locks(1), STrap(2), Spcr(4), S - 6
02: Conc(1), Spcr(1), S - 10
03: Conc(1), DTrap(1), STrap(1), Spcr(1), S - 10
04: Conc(1), Spcr(1), S - 14
05: Conc(1), DTrap(1), Disc(8), STrap(1), S - 7
06: Conc(1), Disc(1), S - 11
07: Conc(1), DTrap(1), Disc(1), STrap(1), Tumb(5), S - 1
08: Conc(1), Disc(1), Locks(1), Sear(1), S - 2
09: Conc(1), STrap(1), Spcr(5), S - 1
10: Conc(1), Locks(1), Sear(1), Spcr(1), S - 2
11: Conc(1), Locks(1), Sear(1), STrap(1), Spcr(1), S - 1
12: Conc(1), Spcr(1), S - 6
13: Conc(1), Locks(1), STrap(1), Spcr(1), S - 7
14: Conc(1), Spcr(1), S - 12
15: Conc(1), Locks(1), STrap(1), Spcr(1), S - 13
16: Conc(1), Spcr(1), S - 18
17: Conc(1), Locks(1), STrap(1), Spcr(1), Tumb(5), S - 9
18: Conc(1), Spcr(1), S - 14
19: Conc(1), Locks(1), STrap(1), Spcr(1), S - 15
20: Conc(1), Disc(12), S - 9
21: Conc(1), Locks(1), STrap(1), Spcr(2), S - 9
22: Conc(1), Spcr(1), S - 14
23: Conc(1), Locks(1), STrap(1), Spcr(1), S - 15
24: Conc(1), Spcr(1), S - 20
25: Conc(1), STrap(1), Spcr(1), S - 23
26: Conc(1), Spcr(1), S - 29
27: Conc(1), STrap(1), Spcr(1), Tumb(5), S - 23
28: Conc(1), Spcr(1), S - 29
29: Conc(1), List(32), STrap(1), Spcr(1), S - 1
30: Conc(1), List(1), Locks(1), Sear(2), Spcr(1)
31: Conc(1), List(1), Locks(1), STrap(1), Spcr(1), S - 1
32: Conc(1), List(1), Spcr(1), S - 6
33: Conc(1), List(1), Locks(1), STrap(1), Spcr(1), S - 7
34: Conc(1), List(1), Spcr(1), S - 12
35: Conc(1), List(1), Locks(1), STrap(1), Spcr(1), S - 13
36: Conc(1), Spcr(1), S - 19
37: Conc(1), List(2), Locks(1), STrap(1), Spcr(1), Tumb(5), S - 9
38: Conc(1), List(1), Spcr(1), S - 14
39: Conc(1), Disc(19), STrap(1)
40: Conc(1), CTrap(1), List(2), Locks(1), Spcr(2)

[Cornflower]

So your talking about two different builds here basically. One part your talkinga bout a gish (knickname for a melee wizard) and in the next your talking about a bard/wizard crafter thing. Which you wouldnt have enough bard levels for perform to hit the 81 skill needed to craft the best items, unless you got something else in mind.

1. Thank you for the "gish". Weird name.... That is extremely useful.
2. "perform to hit the 81 skill"??? Err. For a crafter I need 81 crafting, not perform, right? So, I need 43 crafting and 43 perform (to get bonus on using a skill). If I save a lot of points during level-up, I can still get 43 perform with just one level bard if I take it at 37-40. Or did I misunderstand you?

[Ming]

So your talking about two different builds here basically. One part your talkinga bout a gish (knickname for a melee wizard) and in the next your talking about a bard/wizard crafter thing. Which you wouldnt have enough bard levels for perform to hit the 81 skill needed to craft the best items, unless you got something else in mind.

1. Thank you for the "gish". Weird name.... That is extremely useful.
2. "perform to hit the 81 skill"??? Err. For a crafter I need 81 crafting, not perform, right? So, I need 43 crafting and 43 perform (to get bonus on using a skill). If I save a lot of points during level-up, I can still get 43 perform with just one level bard if I take it at 37-40. Or did I misunderstand you?

II was talking about getting the 81 in crafting skill yes, but you will also need a ton of bard lvls and bard song bonuses to get there. You could fudge it a bit by having a pure int character as if you had a pure wizard who did nothing but dump their feats into int and skill focuses you might be able to get up to that point as well. I have only done it with bard personally.

Bards song works as a combination of perform skill and bard levels like the chart here displays. http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Bard_song

So you need a combination of perform ranks and bard levels to get the various bard song bonuses. Its one of the things in the game that is not front loaded, you will have to dedicate bard levels to get there. Now if you want a build that can get to the best crafting and still be good in combat I have a bard build I could share, but that should probably be its own thread or something, as its a bard/fighter/rdd build. If I recall my lvl split its bard 26, fighter 4, Rdd 10 which nets it the ability to get +15 on skills from the bard lvls and the 80 perform and 81 crafting needed is simple enough to do with skills, feats, epic feats and a few items I know on the server.

[Cornflower]

So your talking about two different builds here basically. One part your talkinga bout a gish (knickname for a melee wizard) and in the next your talking about a bard/wizard crafter thing. Which you wouldnt have enough bard levels for perform to hit the 81 skill needed to craft the best items, unless you got something else in mind.

1. Thank you for the "gish". Weird name.... That is extremely useful.
2. "perform to hit the 81 skill"??? Err. For a crafter I need 81 crafting, not perform, right? So, I need 43 crafting and 43 perform (to get bonus on using a skill). If I save a lot of points during level-up, I can still get 43 perform with just one level bard if I take it at 37-40. Or did I misunderstand you?

II was talking about getting the 81 in crafting skill yes, but you will also need a ton of bard lvls and bard song bonuses to get there. You could fudge it a bit by having a pure int character as if you had a pure wizard who did nothing but dump their feats into int and skill focuses you might be able to get up to that point as well. I have only done it with bard personally.

Bards song works as a combination of perform skill and bard levels like the chart here displays. http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Bard_song

So you need a combination of perform ranks and bard levels to get the various bard song bonuses. Its one of the things in the game that is not front loaded, you will have to dedicate bard levels to get there. Now if you want a build that can get to the best crafting and still be good in combat I have a bard build I could share, but that should probably be its own thread or something, as its a bard/fighter/rdd build. If I recall my lvl split its bard 26, fighter 4, Rdd 10 which nets it the ability to get +15 on skills from the bard lvls and the 80 perform needed is simple enough to do with skills, feats, epic feats and a few items I know on the server.

Damn... I knew that once, but had totally forgotten it. Should have read up on it. Still, thank you so much for clearing that up!

[Kane0]

I was talking about getting the 81 in crafting skill yes, but you will also need a ton of bard lvls and bard song bonuses to get there. You could fudge it a bit by having a pure int character as if you had a pure wizard who did nothing but dump their feats into int and skill focuses you might be able to get up to that point as well. I have only done it with bard personally.

Which irks me a bit. Only Bards and maybe Wizards are expert crafters without gear, one cannot be say a warrior type blacksmith or forge priest. I don't see why Bards should get exclusive master crafter status, it just doesn't really fit the flavor to me. Wizards make more sense if you're looking at it like an artificer, but everything else is pretty much left in the dust without items to act as a crutch.

Anyways, for a wizard you will want meatshields (summons, dominates or other players) and buffs, with maybe the Death Armor/Elemental Shield/Acid Sheathe combo thrown in if you're feeling brave. Relying on anything that needs a save or deals HP damage just isn't going to work once you hit epic levels as enemy HP and saves scale so much faster than your casting abilities. This frees up a lot of feat space that would usually be for things like spell focus and penetration to be used on other things, normally for gishing (fun fact, Gish originates from the title given to Githyanki warrior/mage types in AD&D). Pale Master makes you significantly tougher to bring down, as does DD but you're allergic to Dwarves There is also the actual warrior classes like Champion of Torm and whatnot but to wear armor you will need the auto-still line which is 4 feats to complete and may or may not be worth your time. I would argue that if you're making a caster try not to also make a melee, you'll end up doing neither very well in the end unless you do it the other way around maybe, starting melee then going into caster. That wizard/fighter subrace might be interesting in that case, don't know how good the weapon you get is.

[Ming]

I was talking about getting the 81 in crafting skill yes, but you will also need a ton of bard lvls and bard song bonuses to get there. You could fudge it a bit by having a pure int character as if you had a pure wizard who did nothing but dump their feats into int and skill focuses you might be able to get up to that point as well. I have only done it with bard personally.

Which irks me a bit. Only Bards and maybe Wizards are expert crafters without gear, one cannot be say a warrior type blacksmith or forge priest. I don't see why Bards should get exclusive master crafter status, it just doesn't really fit the flavor to me. Wizards make more sense if you're looking at it like an artificer, but everything else is pretty much left in the dust without items to act as a crutch.

Yeah, I learned that after getting a cleric into her 30s focusing on crafting feats, before I learned that I needed 81 crafting. Which is kinda insane actually. Doable of course, but insane none the less.

[Ming]

I found this build the other day cornflower, which I am going to try on BSK. I imagine it will be fine up till underdark, and then I don't know how it will fair. We will have to see. I made mine human instead of dwarf, and took toughness to make up for the lost con with the different race.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/nwnecbg ... 54625.html

Classes: Wizard 40
Race: Dwarf
Alignment: Any
Playable: 1-40, PvM

Attributes
Str14
Int18 (38)
Wis8
Dex10
Con16
Chr6

Spell School : Illusion (forbidden school Enchantment)
Familiar : Fire Mephit (change to a Pixie at high levels for access to the Rogue skillset).
Beginning Spells :
Shield
True Strike
Mage Armor
Grease
Expeditious Retreat
Magic Weapon
Ray of Enfeeblement

Scrolls gained at 1st :
Summon Creature I
Sleep
Magic Missle
Protection from Alignment

Level Guide
1 Wizard1, Weapon Proficiency : Martial Weapons
2 Wizard2
3 Wizard3, Power Attack
4 Wizard4, Int19
5 Wizard5, Extend Spell
6 Wizard6, Cleave
7 Wizard7
8 Wizard8, Int20
9 Wizard9, Great Cleave
10 Wizard10, Empower Spell
11 Wizard11
12 Wizard12, Still Spell, Int21
13 Wizard13
14 Wizard14
15 Wizard15, Maximize Spell, Toughness
16 Wizard16, Int22
17 Wizard17
18 Wizard18, WF: Greatsword
19 Wizard19
20 Wizard20, Int23, Combat Casting
21 Wizard21, Great Int I
22 Wizard22
23 Wizard23 Great Int II
24 Wizard24, Great Int III, Int27
25 Wizard25
26 Wizard26, Great Int IV
27 Wizard27, Great Int V
28 Wizard28, Int30
29 Wizard29, Great Int VI
30 Wizard30, Great Int VII
31 Wizard31
32 Wizard32, Int32, Epic Spell : Epic Warding
33 Wizard33, Great Int VIII
34 Wizard34
35 Wizard35, Great Int IX
36 Wizard36, Great Int X, Int37
37 Wizard37
38 Wizard38, Epic Spell : Mage Armor
39 Wizard39, Epic Prowess
40 Wizard40, Int38

Combat Vitals
HP, max: 320
BAB 20 (2 APR)
Ranged attacks: You have spells. Use them.
Buffed Ranged: See above.
Melee AB: 24/19
Ranged AB: 20/15
Buffed Melee: 32/27/32 (can be increased to 52/47/52 with Tensor's Trans)
AC: 14 (naked)
Buffed AC : 42 - (Tensor's Trans : 52, Iron Golem 57, Red Dragon 62)
HP, special: 513 Red Dragon - note that there is a bug in the Tensor's Trans spell, that allows you to keep a part of the hit points gained, and that they will add to a Shapechange for an incredible amount (over 800 as an Iron Golem!).

Saves (vs spells) Spellcraft +11, racial +2
Fort: 19 (32)
Will: 21 (34)
Reflex: 16 (29)

Saves will change, when Shapechanged (higher). Note that one can buff the saves with spells even higher.

Skills: 402
Concentration: 43 (46), start with 4 pts and then 1 rank every level, Taunt Resistant
Heal: 43 (42), start with 4 pts and then 1 rank every level
Lore : 43 (58), start with 4 pts and then 1 rank every level
Spellcraft: 43 (56), start with 4 pts and then 1 rank every level
Tumble: 20 (20) xclass, start with 2 ranks and then 1 rank every other level

190 left over to spend, as one sees fit

[Cornflower]

Wheeeeeeeeee!